‘Your World’ on Build Back Better, Manchin’s future πŸ’₯πŸ’₯

This is a rush transcript from “Your World,” January 3, 2021. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

CHARLES PAYNE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Well, here we go again. Congress is back and Democrats are trying to ram through trillions in social spending. West Virginia Democrat Senator Joe Manchin is reportedly open to talks with new demands.

Coming up, Karl Rove on if Manchin is about the cave.

Welcome, everyone. I’m Charles Payne, in for Neil Cavuto. And this is “Your World.”

First to Chad Pergram on Capitol Hill, where the spending pressure is back on.

Chad, tell us about it.

CHAD PERGRAM, FOX NEWS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Charles.

Well, the Senate was delayed on its first day back in Washington, no debate, no votes, everything canceled due to a major snowstorm in Washington, D.C.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT): I hoped to be open in this new session as president pro tem. It comes as a surprise it was snowing, and the snow can be slippery, and probably they should have gotten some plows out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: Democrats still want to pass the social spending bill and voting rights legislation.

Some Democrats are pushing executive orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): There are executive actions that the president can take today to actually make life better for people and to, let’s say, up the ante a little bit to make sure that we do get legislation done, because the other path has to be executive action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: But here’s the problem. If the president could implement the Democrats’ policies, he would have done it already. Democrats are considering changes to the filibuster just for voting rights. But that requires an agreement of all Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D-NY): Yes, rules changes are on the table. We’re discussing them actively with the senators. And as I said in the dear colleague that I issued a while ago, we are going to vote on voting rights shortly, including considering rules changes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERGRAM: Schumer told Democrats the Senate could vote to change the filibuster by Martin Luther King Day.

GOP Utah Senator Mike Lee described a potential change as a — quote — “desperation move.” He said a change would convert the Senate into what he described as a “Lord of the Flies” environment — Charles.

PAYNE: Chad, thank you very much.

So, are Manchin’s new demands a sign that this spending bill may not be dead?

Former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove joins me now.

Karl, I got to tell you, the news is not really news, right? I mean, this is what — this is what Senator Manchin was talking about this whole time with respect to the child care tax credit. Has anything else changed there?

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I don’t think so. I mean, it sounds to me, like — what’s he going to say, no, I’m never going to be open to having discussions with you? I don’t think that’s his style. And he doesn’t want to look like the bad guy.

So, of course, he’s saying, I will be happy to sit down with you. But he’s been very clear he doesn’t want — he does not believe we need a big spending bill. He thinks at any measure ought to be tied to work requirements and ought to be also tied to income.

That is to say, the wealthier you are, the less likely you are to get the benefit. And if you do get the benefit, you have to be working or looking for work. He doesn’t want to undo that connection between a government benefit and a work requirement that so many Democrats apparently want to axe.

PAYNE: What’s really amazing about the whole part about the eligibility, up to $200,000, where it starts to phase out, up to $400,000, you’re still getting something.

ROVE: Yes.

PAYNE: This has been promoted. Everything that Democrats promote, they promote either as helping black and brown or poor and middle class. But so many of these things that they draw a line in the sand with, whether it’s $15,000 for electric vehicles, whether it’s $80,000 for your mortgage tax, or even something like this, this is not — this is not for poor folks.

This is something that I’m shocked more Democrats aren’t pushing back on.

ROVE: Well, they like — some Democrats have grown enamored with the idea of universal benefits. That is to say, it shouldn’t matter whether you make a lot or not. You ought to get the benefit from the government because the government can deliver it more efficiently than can the marketplace.

Take a look, for example, at paid family leave. They want to pay 90 to 100 percent of the cost of existing paid leave programs being offered by private businesses. Does that make sense? We’re going to have the government step in and pay for something that a lot of businesses are willing now to provide their employees in order to attract and keep a strong work force?

This whole idea of universality is, if we can get everybody hooked on to a government benefit, then more will — more power will be in the hands of the government and less hands in the marketplace.

PAYNE: But the problem with that, we saw in real time last year and we’re still feeling it now, it’s the I-word, inflation. Everyone’s talking about it.

Senator Joe Manchin connected the dots. Hey, if you give out $2 trillion in money that we do not need, guess what’s going to happen? People are going to spend it. It’s going to trickle up. You’re going to have hundreds of ships parked off the ports in California, because you have ordered so many things from China.

And he knows this. He’s made that connection. How does a moderate, a reasonable Democrat, push back against that?

ROVE: Well, they shouldn’t, because, as we also know, what we’re doing is inflating the currency. What we’re essentially doing is devaluing the dollar.

And so the money that we get, that’s one of the reasons why, as inflation has gone up, even though wages are rising, the cost of the goods and services we’re trying to buy are rising faster than our wages.

PAYNE: Yes.

ROVE: So we’re running faster in order to get further behind. And that’s one of the arguments that Manchin made.

We can’t afford this as a country. All this excess spending has a real-life implication. And that real-life implication is, it drives up prices by depreciating the value of the currency.

PAYNE: Now, having said all of these things, do you think ultimately some sort of deal will be made?

ROVE: Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if they arrived at something.

But that something would be significantly less than the $5 trillion true cost of the Build Back Better plan. It would be something that Manchin insists be tied to a work requirement, that it be means-tested so that it doesn’t go to wealthy people, and that it be — quote — “paid for.”

That is to say, there has to be a tax or some kind of change that allows the revenue to pay for the full cost of the package. I can see them coming up with something. I don’t see it passing, because to the degree that they give into Manchin’s demands, you’re going to have people like Jayapal, the congresswoman who leads a Progressive Caucus, saying, we’re not going to vote for that when it comes to the House…

PAYNE: Right. Right.

ROVE: … because we want a universal benefit. We don’t want it to be limited. And we think it ought to be much, much, much, much bigger.

PAYNE: Yes, I guess no Cornhusker kickback in this one.

I got a minute ago, Karl. We also heard Chad talking about this filibuster, an attempt, maybe, I guess, a one-time adjustment to the filibuster for voting rights, the update on the voting rights act.

What’s happening there?

ROVE: Well, you have got two people, Sinema of Arizona and Manchin of West Virginia, and probably others in the caucus, Democratic Caucus, who are not happy about the idea of getting rid of the 60-vote requirement, because they recognize, if that happens, then the nature of the Senate changes dramatically.

And we suddenly find ourselves in a place where, if a party controls the House, the Senate and the White House, it does dramatic things. And then, when it loses control and the other party gets in, we ping-pong back the other direction.

Does anybody think that if Republicans — if the 60-vote requirement goes away and Republicans control the House, the Senate and the White House, they wouldn’t do things like impose a national voter I.D. requirement on — quote — “voting rights”?

I mean, let’s not kid ourselves. This is a very bad mood maneuver. I don’t know why Schumer is doing it because he doesn’t have the votes to pull it off. And he’s going to look foolish, come up short and look weak as a result, because he’s got at least two Democrats, Sinema and Manchin, saying, we’re not going for it.

PAYNE: Yes.

ROVE: And I suspect, from my conversation with a number of the members of the Senate, there are more Democrats back there who don’t — who agree with Sinema and Manchin more than they agree with Schumer on it.

PAYNE: Yes, they just don’t want to be beaten up by mainstream media, which is going to drown on Sinema.

ROVE: That’s right.

PAYNE: Oh, my goodness, the things they said about her this weekend.

I got to tell you, Karl, it’s great seeing you. Happy new year.

ROVE: Same to you.

PAYNE: And the framers had some pretty good notions about the tyranny of the majority. Human nature, sometimes, you got to protect against it, no matter how good your intentions are.

See you soon, friend.

ROVE: Thank you, sir.

PAYNE: All right, folks, my next guest made the switch from Democrat to Republican, now urging Joe Manchin to do the same.

New Jersey Republican Jeff Van Drew joins me now.

So, Jeff, I did some research. On the Senate side, in modern times, you had three Democrats make the switch to Republican, Strom Thurmond, Richard Shelby, who’s still in office, Ben Campbell.

What’s the sales pitch here?

REP. JEFF VAN DREW (R-NJ): I think the sales pitch is very simple.

The Democratic Party has consistently changed more and more. It is leaving middle-class America. It’s leaving working America. And, again, I didn’t really leave the Democratic Party, as has been said many times. It left me.

I’d be willing to help. I know it’s a tough thing to do. It wasn’t tough for me at all in the end, though. And it was the right thing to do. And I feel so much better because of it. And I will tell you why, because, if you look at what the Democratic majority did this year, more crime in all our major cities, our supply chain is in trouble, obviously.

You definitely see that America is at a stage where now we are not having the energy portfolio that we did before, that we literally now have to go and beg the Mideast for energy, that we are on our knees to China and Russia and Iran, that we are weaker in our military, that our police have been demeaned and diminished.

PAYNE: Yes.

VAN DREW: There are so many issues. You can’t even — how would you want to stay in that party? I don’t understand that.

It wasn’t — with me, it was obviously impeachment, but much, much more. And I have to think the people of West Virginia have to look at Joe Manchin and appreciate what he’s done, but also say, there’s a lot more. It’s not just this one bill, which is a horrific bill.

PAYNE: Yes. Yes.

VAN DREW: And I hope he doesn’t make any compromises on it.

PAYNE: And from what I understand, any sort of committees that he’s involved in or that he’s ahead of, he would be able to keep that leadership role, making it even more enticing.

Getting back to the Democratic Party and what they — the way they have morphed over the years, particularly now in this massive progressive push, it doesn’t seem to be steeped in America, as much as being a good global citizen. And, listen, we have always been that, right?

We fought two World Wars. We dug the world out. We have bailed them out. We have lost treasures of lives around the world. We have been the world’s policeman, keeping everything on a steady keel. But the idea of mortgaging our entire future, whether it’s to be a so-called good global citizen or in the name of climate change, I’m sure Manchin has to be grappling with this every day.

VAN DREW: You’re absolutely right.

The question is here, do you love America? And I hope that most of us do. Quite frankly, there are people in the Democratic Caucus now, quite a number of them, that don’t love the America that we know, the America that we believe in, the America that is the shining city on the hill, and has been an America of exceptionalism.

I can’t accept that. And that’s why I left. I think also that Joe’s got to take a look and see all the other things that they want to do. Look at the BBB, what I call the big bad bill. Build Back Better is not the right words for it.

But when you look, all the things that bill does, goes into people’s accounts, anybody that spends more than $10,000, which is everyone.

PAYNE: Yes. Yes.

VAN DREW: They’re going to hire 80,000 IRS agents, spend $800 billion. You have got to be kidding me…

PAYNE: Yes.

VAN DREW: … on the things that they want to do and change America.

Tree equity.

(LAUGHTER)

VAN DREW: I don’t know if you know. Tell me what tree equity is.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

VAN DREW: We’re going to spend a billion-and-a-half dollars on it, though.

PAYNE: Yes, I’m not 100 — sure what it is, but it does scare me. I think Orwell wrote about something like this.

Representative Van Drew, happy new year. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Talk to you real soon.

VAN DREW: Thank you.

It’s great to be with you. Happy new year to you.

PAYNE: Meanwhile, folks, to test or not to test?

Mixed signals from the White House’s medical team when it comes to testing after COVID quarantine. We have got Dr. Marty Makary on that.

And the flight-mare continues, as air travelers, well — by the way, our Rich Edson, he knows it firsthand. He’s camped out at Reagan National Airport.

Rich, what’s going on now?

RICH EDSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Charles, thousands of flights canceled nationwide. And here at Reagan National Airport, it’s a mess, thanks to the snow.

We will have that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: Flyers across America saying, snow way. Bad weather mixed with the surge in COVID cases keeping travelers on edge, as cancellations keep piling up.

To FOX’s Rich Edson at Reagan National Airport outside of Washington, D.C., with the latest — Rich.

EDSON: Hey. Good afternoon, Charles.

And the sun is finally out here at Reagan National Airport. Not like it’s going to change much anytime soon. Usually this time of day, you hear flights taking off throughout the day. All we’re hearing now is cars riding by in the slush and airport hold music on speakerphone.

What you have got here, National Airport, National Weather Service says about seven inches of snow throughout the day. About 85 percent of the flights that were supposed to take off here never left. That’s according to FlightAware. Massive problems throughout the country as well.

According to FlightAware, about 4,400 delays around the U.S., about 2,900 canceled flights, as many of the travelers headed to the exits here at National Airport say they never even took off today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don’t know because they keep canceling. One minute, they say we have a time here. Then, next, they say we have a time there, so we just don’t know. So it’s confusion. So it’s just — that’s more money being spent, more unnecessary money.

And it’s just — it’s a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was supposed to land in Palm Springs, but I’m going to San Francisco now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EDSON: This is on top of the delays from the weekend, thanks to storms in the West and Midwest, travelers coming home from the holidays, and COVID sidelining airline staff at the airports, government agencies and airlines.

AP reports United is offering pilots triple or more of their wages just to pick up open flights through the month. Spirit is paying its flight attendants double through Tuesday. Across the Potomac River from here, no press briefing at the White House, since federal offices in the region are closed. So are schools.

Some school districts around here have already announced they’re closing tomorrow. Federal and D.C. government workers are teleworking today. And with this historic surge in COVID cases, the District of Columbia announced today that it closed in person testing facilities all because of this storm — Charles.

PAYNE: Wow. Rich, thank you very much.

And now there’s this. The FDA is authorizing Pfizer’s booster shots for kids ages 12 through 15, as Omicron cases continue to surge. Now, the CDC advisory board will take a look on January 5.

Let’s get the read now, though, from FOX News medical contributor Dr. Marty Makary.

All right, Dr. Makary, we knew — we know they’re going to go down the age line all the way down to maybe 5 years old, who knows. Your thoughts on this latest move here?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think I have two significant concerns.

One is that there’s a risk of myocarditis. And there’s really almost no clinical benefit to boosting people, based on the data we have right now, in that age group of teenagers 12 through 15.

Now, the CDC — the FDA’s external experts had significant concerns about boosting young people. That’s why the FDA did not convene them. They bypassed them altogether, because they probably knew they were going to vote it down again. They voted it down last time it was up for a vote. So this is really a violation of the integrity of the process.

Now, the CDC is going to hold their own expert meeting, but that’s a kangaroo court. They have experts that are like-minded. And if somebody disagrees, like Dr. Martin Kulldorff did back during the J&J pause, they fire them from the committee. So, I have no faith in that committee.

PAYNE: You know what was interesting to me is, so Omicron comes and it really becomes this tidal wave.

But the narrative that starts to emerge is that it’s far less lethal, right? You get the information out of South Africa. Also, it’s sort of like a Roman candle. It goes up, has this big boom, then starts to drift to earth pretty quickly.

So the media headlines seem to shift it from that — that angle to children. That’s all I saw were headlines last week about Omicron and children. And anyone with a child had to be scared to death. I mean, is that appropriate? Is that — is it — should we be cautious to a fault in the media by pointing to risk in children?

MAKARY: Like, I would think of it as a common cold that’s going around this viral season, this winter, and almost everybody we know will probably get it, and it causes mild illness.

Look, Omicron now has laboratory evidence that it’s not infecting the lung cells or the deep parts of the respiratory system. It’s more in the upper respiratory system. We have got epidemiological data that people are not getting severely ill, with rare exceptions, and those people have certain medical profiles that they can be aware of.

And we have bedside observations that it’s mild. So the best news is, Omicron confers immunity to Delta. And that’s good news right now. It’s not an excuse to go out there and start adding additional boosters to people that were already at an infinitesimally low risk.

PAYNE: There seems to be some friction amongst the White House team, Dr. Fauci suggesting perhaps testing after five days of isolation. I’m not sure Dr. Walensky is on board with that.

Also, you have to ask yourself, we don’t have the right tests. If we were to test, I mean, these at-home test, I don’t know if they’re reliable enough that they give you any sort of real — I mean, your thoughts on this, because it seems to me that Dr. Fauci at this point might be grasping at straws.

MAKARY: Well, it does appear, Charles, I agree, that there’s internal strife within the medical advisers to the White House.

I have long felt that the president is not getting good medical advice from Dr. Fauci. We could test for every known respiratory pathogen every day in the life of every American, and you might argue that you might be able to reduce cases that way, but it’s not practical.

And, right now, we have got a massive testing shortage that is a manufactured crisis. You cannot have a testing scarce, limited supply and be broadly recommending testing and recommending them for the lowest-risk Americans, which are schoolchildren. Those tests should be used for vulnerable Americans in high-risk communities.

PAYNE: Dr. Makary, you have been a rock through all of this.

Happy new year and thank you very much.

MAKARY: You too. Thanks.

PAYNE: Coming up: President Biden’s beef with U.S. meat producers. Will an industry crackdown actually push prices down?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: How about them apples?

Apple becoming the first company to top $3 trillion in market value. It didn’t close there, but history was still made, as the market started 2022 on a good note.

We will see you in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: Where’s the beef?

President Biden meeting with meat producers today, as the administration looks to combat soaring food prices.

White House — FOX News White House correspondent Jacqui Heinrich at the White House now with the very latest — Jacqui.

JACQUI HEINRICH, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Charles.

Well, the White House is allocating a billion dollars from American Rescue Plan funding to send to independent meat and poultry producers as part of this effort to bring down skyrocketing meat and poultry prices, which the president blamed on meat processing companies and their lack of competition.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have said it before and I will say it again. Capitalism without competition isn’t capitalism. It’s exploitation.

That’s what we’re seeing in meat and poultry and those industries now. Small independent farmers and ranchers are being driven out of business, sometimes businesses that have been around for generations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: Before beef prices this November were up 20.9 percent from last year, according to the Department of Labor.

Grocery prices were up 6.4 percent, accounting for the largest year-over- year increase since December of 2008.

Biden blamed the Trump administration for weakening the Packers and Stockyards Act, saying that it made possible for the abuse that’s happening now. The DOJ and USDA are also coordinating to launch a venue to report concerns about competition law violations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: In too many industries, a handful of giant companies dominate the market. And too often they use their power to squeeze out smaller competitors and stifle new entrepreneurs.

Four big corporations control more than half the markets in beef, pork and poultry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEINRICH: Now, not everyone thinks that this is the right move from the Biden administration.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce accused the White House of using the high prices to justify their preexisting agenda of overturning antitrust and competition policy. And the North American Meat Institute, which accounts for some of the biggest producers, the biggest companies, they also expressed frustration, saying there have been four companies in this sector for years and — for nearly 30 years, actually, and it didn’t cause inflation now.

They also added that labor is the biggest problem for the rising costs — Charles.

PAYNE: Thank you very much, Jacqui.

Now, my next guest was actually a part of the meeting with the president today, Oklahoma Farmers Union President Scott Blubaugh.

Scott, tell us about this meeting. Was it sort of acrimony there? Did you feel like the fall guy for some other things that were totally out of your control?

SCOTT BLUBAUGH, PRESIDENT, OKLAHOMA FARMERS UNION: Well, no, I just thought that — I thought it was a good meeting.

I thought we were being able to bring this to light to where we are. The cattle prices and the beef prices are two different things. And while we have seen beef prices go up in the supermarkets to the consumers, we have not seen beef — or cattle prices go up. Only beef prices have went up.

And, actually, just the opposite has happened with cattle prices. In the last — well, since 1980, we have lost — as a cattle rancher, we have lost 40 percent of the farmer and rancher share of that retail food dollar. And that just continues year after year after year.

And we are to the point now to where our independent farmers and ranchers aren’t going to be able to stay in business any longer if we don’t rectify the problem.

PAYNE: Yes.

BLUBAUGH: So it’s really a two-edged sword.

So the consumer is paying more than they should be for beef, and the ranches are receiving way less than they should be at the same time. So the only folks that are really benefiting from this system we have today are those four major international meat-packers, and their stockholders.

PAYNE: So, Scott, let me jump in here for a second, because everyone watching is certainly sympathetic to this.

Listen, my grandfather had a farm in Alabama. He had a few cows. In fact, he gave me one when I was a kid. I don’t know what happened to it.

(LAUGHTER)

PAYNE: But I went through. I looked at the list of beef, meat producers and poultry producers, Tyson, JBS, Cargill, Sysco, Smithfield, Hormel, National Beef, Perdue, OSI, and ConAgra.

So there’s some — there seems to be some competition there. But the point that was brought up is, why now? If you only — if you have these four companies that dominated or — I will use air quotes — for the last 30 years, why at this particular point have they made their move at this sort of — to abuse a system?

I mean, does higher feed cost play into it? Does higher oil and gas costs play into it? Does higher labor costs play into it, the higher equipment costs play into it, the supply chain kinks play into it?

Are there any other legitimate reasons maybe why these prices are going up?

BLUBAUGH: Well, all those things are part of it.

But we have been actually asking for this for a long time. This is not something that just started. This started 40 years ago. And it’s just continually gotten worse and worse and worse.

PAYNE: The beef — the spike in beef, though, the spike in the price of beef, though, is what we’re — what I’m referring to.

What was so magical over the last year that, all of a sudden, this has become a national crisis?

BLUBAUGH: Well, I think, when the consumer is overpaying for beef, but the — yet that money doesn’t trickle down. It’s not trickling down to the farmers and ranchers who work so hard to produce.

And they’re not seeing that benefit from it. And it’s because these big four packers have such a large market share in the beef industry, it’s actually 85 percent of our fat cattle market is actually controlled by those four packers.

And so — and that’s a little bit misleading as well…

PAYNE: Sure. Sure.

BLUBAUGH: … because, in some parts of the country, in different regions, there may be only one buyer for those fat cattle, instead of four.

And so you get a take-it-or-leave-it price.

PAYNE: Right.

BLUBAUGH: And, really, that lack of competition is just not good.

PAYNE: Yes.

BLUBAUGH: And we believe that competition is a good thing for everybody. It’s good for the consumers and farmers and ranchers.

(CROSSTALK)

PAYNE: Yes, I don’t think you — I don’t know what the solution is on that. I don’t think anyone is talking about breaking them all up.

But a billion dollars is going to be spent. We will see how that works.

Scott, thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

All right, folks, about that return-to-work date, another major bank telling employees to stay home, but for how long? And how long can the economy take these kinds of hits?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: The jury deliberations — deliberating fraud charges against former entrepreneur Elizabeth Holmes having some trouble reaching a unanimous verdict.

Claudia Cowan is following the trial live from San Jose, California — Claudia.

CLAUDIA COWAN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Charles.

That’s right. Just about 3.5 hours ago, the jury indicated it was unable to reach a unanimous verdict on three of the 11 fraud and conspiracy charges against Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes.

As always, Holmes arrived here at the courthouse shortly before the judge read the jury’s note with her mother and boyfriend by her side, and she had nothing to say to the throng of media outside.

Inside the courthouse, Holmes listened as the judge read the jury’s note out loud and, after a brief discussion with the lawyers, told the jury to keep trying. The eight men and four women must reach a unanimous verdict to convict.

Holmes is accused of conning patients and investors out of hundreds of millions of dollars, intentionally lying to them about the effectiveness of her blood testing technology. Now, we don’t know which three counts the jury cannot agree on, nor do we know if the jury has perhaps reached a verdict on the remaining eight counts.

And while we cannot know for sure what Elizabeth Holmes is feeling right now, it is perhaps hope that a deadlock on three counts today could mean a deadlock on all 11 accounts eventually and a possible mistrial.

But for now, Charles, the deliberations have resumed, a divided jury here in San Jose ordered by the judge to stay at it — back to you.

PAYNE: Claudia, thank you very much.

So, what’s another two weeks at home? Goldman Sachs the latest company pushing back its return-to-office plans, now telling its workers to clock in from home until January 19. The question, though, is, how long can the economy keep moving if workers aren’t moving back to the office anytime soon?

Let’s ask Larry Glazer from Mayflower Advisors.

Larry, I think Goldman can do a lot of things from home, but most businesses can’t, right? You got to be hands on, especially these small businesses, which were just now starting to recover. So what’s the deal now? How long can we keep postponing this?

LARRY GLAZER, MAYFLOWER ADVISORS: That’s so true, Charles.

Look, when big businesses don’t go back to work, it’s the small businesses that get hurt the worst, these little businesses that support the Goldman Sachs of the world. Yes, of course, Goldman can work from anywhere.

But Vinny’s Pizza can’t. The lobby shop can’t. The parking attendant can’t, the dry cleaner, all those businesses. These are mom-and-pop small businesses, the backbone of this country. They get crushed. And if you look at a city like New York, what is so awesome about New York, the reason people come visit it in the summer is because they want to see all these local businesses.

They want to go to Little Italy. They want to go to Chinatown. They want to see Times Square. And if you put all these little businesses out of business, it just becomes another mall. It becomes another Gap. And you know what? No one’s coming in to visit The Gap.

So I think it’s really tragic here. And I think we got to restore our soul and protect these little businesses.

PAYNE: Yes.

GLAZER: And it starts getting people back in the office.

PAYNE: Oh, hey, man, I wish I had a tambourine while you were going through that. I’d have been playing that bad boy the whole time.

(LAUGHTER)

PAYNE: Let’s talk about the market for a minute.

GLAZER: Sure.

PAYNE: First of all, Apple playing around with that $3 trillion mark.

I think what’s really amazing, not only the number itself, but how quickly it’s made to this milestone.

GLAZER: It really is true.

Look, markets climb a wall of worry. And there’s no question, people get nervous, they flock to safety. Apple is the ultimate blue chip. It’s the ultimate safety. But I think the markets also look beyond COVID, beyond Omicron. They’re looking at midterm elections. They’re looking at sunny skies ahead, better times ahead.

And I think that’s where the market will start to broaden out, some of these smaller names, some of these names that really did have a correction in the fourth quarter, not Apple, but other companies. Those will start to come back as the economy really fuels back.

So we’re going to get past all these higher prices, all the shock of inflation, everything else that’s hurt the consumer and crushed sentiment.

PAYNE: Right.

GLAZER: And we will get to better times, because consumers and businesses are so resilient in this country. They can survive this.

PAYNE: Larry, I love your optimism.

It’s infectious, except Wall Street really doesn’t necessarily agree, right? And, listen, before I even say this, I want folks to know, going into last year…

GLAZER: Yes.

PAYNE: … the Wall Street estimates for the S&P was anywhere from 3800 to 4400. It closed at almost 4800. So, Wall Street was way off the mark.

GLAZER: So true.

PAYNE: Again this year, mostly middling kind of things. I mean, there seems to be this sort of hunch on Wall Street that we can’t have four great years back to back to back.

But I don’t know that there’s any fundamental rationale for that, is there?

GLAZER: You know, Charles, Wall Street is jealous of the individual investor who took back the market, from listening to you and listening to other people in this country right now.

And this democratization is here to stay. People didn’t give up hope on Apple, because they were visiting the Apple Store, just because there was a COVID wave. And they’re not giving up on the markets. And Wall Street has got it wrong. They’re jealous. They missed the story. There’s a great growth engine going on in this country.

We’re going to survive. It’s going to be bumpy. We’re going to have some tough times, but we’re going to climb that wall, get through this inflation…

PAYNE: Right.

GLAZER: … all the difficulty that’s affecting people right now.

And Wall Street’s going to be chasing the story, just like they did last year.

PAYNE: Amen. And happy new year. Talk to you again real soon, Larry. Thanks a lot.

GLAZER: You too. Take care.

PAYNE: And speaking of a new year, tensions still high at the border, the situation escalating as Border Patrol faces gun — faced gunfire over the weekend.

We’re going to have more than that right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: To the Southern border now.

Tensions escalating over the weekend, after shots were fired at border agents in Texas.

FOX News correspondent Bill Melugin is in La Joya, Texas, with more on that — Bill.

BILL MELUGIN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Charles, good afternoon to you.

That’s right, 2022 getting off to a dangerous start for one Border Patrol agent after he was shot at from the Mexican side of the river on New Year’s Day. Take a look at these photos given to us from a law enforcement source showing some of the bullet holes in that border agent’s vehicle.

What we’re told happened is that agent was arresting a migrant who had just crossed illegally near Roma, Texas, about an hour away from where we are, when that gunfire erupted from the Mexican side. Only his vehicle was hit. Thankfully, that agent was not injured, CBP and the FBI both now investigating this incident.

If we can pull up this video right here, human smuggling certainly did not take a break over the holiday weekend. What you’re looking at is Texas DPS pulling over and stopping a pickup truck being driven by a suspected human smuggler in Mission, Texas, on New Year’s Eve.

They get the driver out. They arrest him. Take a look at what they find in the vehicle, seven illegal immigrants being smuggled both in the bed of that pickup truck, as well as hiding inside of that truck. That Mexican national, the driver, was arrested and charged with multiple counts of human smuggling.

Then take a look at these photos out of Del Rio sector also on New Year’s Eve, more human smuggling, Texas DPS pulling over this truck with a tractor-trailer — or with a trailer attached to it. You can see in the photos there was a large group of illegal immigrants being smuggled inside of that trailer.

What’s interesting here is, you will see underneath that vehicle the driver altered the suspension. He put blocks underneath the car, so it wouldn’t look like the frame of the vehicle was riding low from the weight of the people he was smuggling, that driver also arrested for human smuggling after he had people up in the crawlspace of that trailer.

Former DHS Secretary Chad Wolf says the Biden administration’s messaging throughout this border crisis is just enticing people to come here.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAD WOLF, FORMER ACTING U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: They need a new strategy. They need a new approach.

And we continue to see these record high numbers, because what the cartels and what the illegal migrants know is that, if they cross that border, odds are that they will remain in the United States for years, as their immigration court proceedings continue.

And that’s the issue here. And that’s what the Biden administration needs to address.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELUGIN: And speaking of Del Rio Sector, the border chief in Del Rio Sector just updated this afternoon, reporting that, just over the new year holiday weekend, they apprehended more than 2,200 illegal immigrants.

Just in the month of November alone, Del Rio Sector picked up migrants from more than 60 countries all around the world — Charles, back to you.

PAYNE: Wow. Wow, 60 countries. Wow.

Bill, thank you very much.

MELUGIN: Yes.

PAYNE: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez taking some heat over her maskless weekend. Can’t wait to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAYNE: Do as I say, not as I do.

Critics ripping progressive New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez after she was seen maskless in Florida over the holiday weekend. So is this sending the wrong message?

Here to debate, GOP pollster Lee Carter and Democratic strategist Laura Fink.

Happy new year to both of you, ladies.

LAURA FINK, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Happy new year.

PAYNE: Let me start with you, Lee.

Golly. It was interesting is, there was a big-time tweet with AOC and her boyfriend chilling out. She was having a drink. And she’s — that was sort of like, OK. She came back with this party later, though, that you knew people had cell phones.

I mean, what’s the message there? This seems like a lot of chutzpah to me.

LEE CARTER, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: It does.

And I think the problem is not that she went out in Florida, that she went on vacation. The problem is the hypocrisy that people see. It causes a lot of confusion. I mean, the American people in general are confused over the rules. Should they wear masks? Shouldn’t they wear a mask? What type of masks? Should they be going out in public? Should they not?

And they also feel very judged by a lot of people on the left for their confusion and often for people themselves saying, you know what, I don’t think the masks are going to work, and so I’m going to go out, I’m vaccinated, I’m going to live my life, and they feel very judged.

And then this kind of behavior comes out from Ocasio-Cortez. And it’s not just her. There’s others who have done the same thing. And I think it causes a huge amount of mistrust in institutions and any advice that they’re — that they’re seeking to provide.

PAYNE: Laura, to that point on the judging of finger-pointing, Florida and Governor DeSantis, that they have been in the crosshairs of critics in the media, the Democratic Party over and over again throughout this entire pandemic.
And here it is, AOC decides, well, I want to live free. I want to let my hair down, and where does she go? To Florida. It kind of contradicts the message that somehow Florida is doing it all wrong.

FINK: Well, she wasn’t wearing a mask outside in both instances, Charles, the one you’re talking about and at the — at the outside event with Billy Porter.

But here’s what I will say. I’m going to quote Mariah Carey, because I know we all haven’t had enough of her this holiday season in her song, “Why Are You So Obsessed With Me?”

The right has been obsessed with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez since the beginning. Lou Dobbs called her a little girl. Rep. Ted Yoho called her an F’ing B. Rep. Paul Gosar made a video of himself murdering her. And the right has constantly called her unintelligent, and, frankly, stupid this entire time.

So, does the right-wing conservative media outlets calling Ocasio-Cortez a hypocrite surprise me? It does not.

The power of her ideas, put simply, tax the rich, lower health care costs, and raise wages for American workers, is something that not only resonates with the left, but also the populist right.

I think what you’re seeing in these critics is someone afraid of an idea.

PAYNE: You know, and I bristle when anyone’s called dumb, Lee, and no matter who’s doing it. When people — I hate those kinds of discussions. But

I don’t think that this is — this is the case in this particular point. We — AOC has set herself up to be a lightning rod, to be a leader, and leaders have to take criticism. In this particular case, you can’t not legitimately push back on this. This is why Laura changed the subject.

FINK: I spoke to the question.

PAYNE: This particular subject is, while AOC’s constituents are living under draconian rules in the Bronx, many of them losing their jobs because of these different sorts of mandates, she’s down there having a pretty good time.

The optics are awful. I mean, Lee, you’re a pollster. The Biden administration is struggling right now. They can’t get COVID right. They promise on November 2 they would be perfect. They have more deaths than the Trump administration. They have cases, more cases than the Trump administration.

And then they tell people, well, do this, do that, do this. How can you get a cohesive message, how can you get people to even believe in you if you don’t follow your own rules, your own advice?

CARTER: I mean, that’s the — that’s the real issue here.

I think, to Laura’s point, that the criticisms of AOC have been terrible in many ways. But this is a really valid criticism. This is a woman who put herself out there and talked about all of these issues. And then she goes against her own word.

She also was critical of the governor of Florida for taking time away with his wife, instead of being on vacation and dealing — instead of dealing with the rise in COVID cases. She’s got the same issue here in New York.

And so the hypocrisy of this issue is one that is particularly troubling.

PAYNE: Yes.

CARTER: And it’s more than just hypocrisy. This kind of behavior is causing confusion.

People don’t know what to do.

PAYNE: Laura, I want to give you…

CARTER: They don’t know where to get true and valuable and valid information about what they should be doing about masks, what they should be doing about testing, where they should be going.

(CROSSTALK)

PAYNE: We got less than a minute to go. I’m going to give Laura the last word.

Also, on that — along that same line of thinking, this new mask — this new testing regimen, that we don’t have the tests, that’s another area of confusion. I mean, this is not working.

FINK: I think what — to Lee’s earlier point, if you’re concerned about the pandemic, it’s a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

We need to eliminate misinformation coming out about the vaccines and encourage people to get their dose…

PAYNE: Yes.

FINK: … because we see the response as this manifests in unvaccinated populations.

And, as far as wearing a mask, it’s pretty simple. Wear it when you’re indoors. When you’re out of doors, you’re free.

PAYNE: OK.

FINK: So, she followed those rules. The right is trying to tar and feather another Democratic woman. No one is shocked.

PAYNE: Yes, well, a Democratic lawmaker.

And the bottom line is, it’s a pandemic of a lot of vaccinated people as well. And we all want to be healthy.

Happy new year, ladies.

Also, thank you all for catching and watching the show.

Now “The Five” starts.

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